Season 1, Ep. 8: The Power of the Outsider

No matter how successful we are, every one of us has an area of our leadership where we’re not performing as well as we could. What’s worse is that we’re often blind to the extent of our own incompetence, and so we aren’t able to see opportunities for changing and improving how we lead. So, how can you ensure your blind spots are covered and get the kind of feedback and insight needed to make you a better leader? By leveraging the perspective of the outsider.

Join us as we learn from Pete Fisher (co-founder and CEO of Human Investing) and Jeff Pinneo (CEO Mentor with Building Champions) about why every leader needs the perspective of a trusted outsider.

View Transcript >>

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Hey, this is Daniel. Before we get into this episode, I want to ask you for a favor, please go to building champions.com forward slash podcast and take the survey. As we’re preparing for season two, your input will be so greatly appreciated. Thanks now let’s get into the episode. And so I can think about in the last 12 months, uh, two individuals, both very similar profile, uh, one in which ended up hiring us and one didn’t that’s my good friend, Pete Fisher, Pete, the co founder and owner of human investing, a Portland based financial planning firm with a track record of offering effective high integrity, financial guidance for those who are willing to receive it.

Speaker 1 (00:52):

But as Pete has learned over the years, not every potential client is open to the kind of outside insight he and his team provide. But the one that ended up not hiring us was really looking for someone to allow them to continue the bad behavior that they had been displaying. Our job is not to perpetuate bad behavior and bad behavior could be spending too much to where they’re going to run themselves off a cliff financially. It could be them blowing through every stop sign known demand on their way to try to get the bike over a hundred miles an hour. And that was sort of what this guy was trying to get us to buy in to do, because you know, of course, if you get somebody who’s a certified financial planner and you get a firm that’s been in existence for 15 years and you get a bunch of credentialed experts around you, and they’re telling you that it’s okay to go a hundred, then that makes you want to go 150. Right? And you’ve now officially got a license to not only perpetuate the bad behavior, but actually ramp it up.

Speaker 1 (01:59):

Well, this individual might’ve thought he was seeking outside advice on his financial decisions. What he was really looking for was a yes man, someone who wouldn’t challenge his thinking and behavior, who would just blindly give him the thumbs up to whatever path or action he chose as for the second individual, the one who did end up hiring Pete and his team, this other person, crazy risk profile, super aggressive investor, was looking for that outside perspective. And you could tell he had had other people that had spoken into his life. Maybe they were mentors, maybe were there. I don’t know what it was, but they actually came to us as a referral from somebody that they know liked and trusted. And so in that particular case, we were able to speak into their life. They gave us a seat at the table and then you see them lean in. Actually, I just emailed my team last night to get an update on this particular client. And the words that they use is they’re engaged. They’re active,

Speaker 2 (03:00):

They’re listening, we’re getting stuff done.

Speaker 1 (03:05):

If we’re honest, many of us tend to be more like the first guy than we are. The second we may think getting this outside perspective is valuable, but we never really get around to prioritizing it. And then when we do, when it comes to actually opening ourselves up to what a trusted, honest outsider might have to say to us, both the good and the bad

Speaker 2 (03:24):

We balk. And when we resist

Speaker 1 (03:27):

Welcoming this input, we lose out on a powerful tool that has the potential to greatly improve how we live and how we lead. I’m Daniel Harkavy. And this is the building champions podcast for the past 20 plus years. I and my team here at building champions have been helping top business leaders improve the way they live and lead. Our goal for this podcast is to share stories and insights that will help you to become a better leader. This episode is about the power of the outsider and how finding the right mix of outside perspectives and voices can change your leadership,

Speaker 2 (04:07):

Your life for the better.

Speaker 1 (04:14):

If you want to be a successful effective leader, you need to leverage the perspective of outsiders in your life. Why is this outside input so important because every leader has blind spots In 1999, then Cornell psychologists, David Dunning, and Justin Kruger published a paper detailing, a fascinating psychological phenomenon. Now known as the Dunning Kruger effect. The Dunning Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people overestimate their performance specifically, it shows that the more incompetent a person is in a given performance area, the more likely they are to overestimate their ability in that area.

Speaker 2 (04:57):

Yeah. So essentially, if there’s an area of your leadership where you’re deficient, you’re less likely to realize you need help there. And so

Speaker 1 (05:07):

Turn, you keep doing things as you’ve always done, never making the necessary corrections to improve your effectiveness in your role. This is why the perspective of the outsider can be a game changer for leaders, everyone struggles at some point, even the best, most high profile leaders have areas of their work, where they aren’t performing as well as they could. And when you have a network of people surrounding and supporting you, who have an outside objective view into your leadership, they can see things that you can’t. They can point out these blind spots so that you can address them and improve your leadership effectiveness. But building such a network is easier said than done in order to find the right balance of outsiders who can provide the insight you need to grow and succeed. You first have to understand the difference between cheerleaders and challengers.

Speaker 3 (05:58):

I’m not talking yes, persons. I’m talking about people who are just as enthusiastic and close to your company’s mission, as you are likely to be optimistic about it. And you’re at risk of just hearing the good

Speaker 1 (06:09):

That’s my friend, Jeff, Pineo one of our CEO mentors here at building champions. Jeff has tons of experience, both seeking outside insight during his time as CEO of horizon, air and medical teams, international, as well as giving outside insight in his capacity as mentor trustee and board member for Jeff, a cheerleader is more than someone who just smiles and nods their head. Yes. At everything you do or say a cheerleader is someone who cares deeply about you as a person and as a leader, they’re encouragers who want to help breed life into your vision for your business, who wants to see you succeed in all that you pursue. Then on the other end of the spectrum, you have challengers. These are individuals who call you out on your complacency. They help you to get out of ruts and push you to think in new and different ways. Jeff believes that this kind of challenging input is crucial when building your network of outsiders,

Speaker 3 (07:08):

You know, have one or two, you know, provocateurs, even in the, in the mix whose approach is just so unconventional. It just rocks your world in terms of how you think about things.

Speaker 1 (07:19):

The input from such challengers and provocateurs may be hard to receive. At times it may touch on a sore spot in your leadership, or they may ask you to consider a strategy or a new line of thinking that’s really outside of your comfort zone, but we need this kind of input because it’s when we’re challenged that we encounter opportunities for real growth and transformation. Now it’s important to note that cheerleaders aren’t more valuable than challengers or vice versa. You need both points of view from your network of outsiders. If you hope to receive diverse, balanced feedback on your work and leadership,

Speaker 3 (07:57):

But I’ll tell you, it’s just so, so valuable to have that, that kind of mix in, in, in the best of worlds, have one in each kind of end of the spectrum. Someone who is grounding grounded that knows you so well and actually has enough common life experience, but enough objectivity enough wanting to see your best, where they can be sort of a truth teller to bring you back to where you said you wanted to be. And then parties on the other end of the spectrum out there who were challenging you to go to the edge of the solar system in ways you would never have considered they’re all good. And it all brings in, you know, to, to you as an executive, uh, you know, the, uh, the privilege of being able to step back and say, I’d never would have seen any of this. Had I not been intentional about welcoming it? Now I have the joy and the responsibility of pulling down what makes sense for me and you know, and making commitments to execute well.

Speaker 1 (08:46):

You ever hope to effectively leverage the benefit of outside insight in your life and leadership. You need cheerleaders and challengers. If you only have cheerleaders, you’ll probably feel good, but you won’t ever be pushed to grow and learn. And if you only have challengers, you’ll start to wear down without any encouragement or reminders of what’s good and unique about who you are and how you lead. So seek out the challengers and the cheerleaders in your life. And remember that people may serve both roles for you. Not everyone will be a cut and dried cheerleader or a challenger. Good outsider networks include individuals who are also nuanced and can cheer you on when they see something good and then challenge you when they see room for improvement. As you start to find your outsiders and build your network, there are a couple of key traits to look for, regardless of if this person is serving in a more cheerleader or challenger role, the first is trustworthiness, ask yourself, can I trust the feedback?

Speaker 1 (09:50):

This person is giving me. And that trust goes beyond having a comfortable, personal relationship for Pete and his team at human investing, their clients seek out their outside perspective because they know that the advice they’ll receive is coming from someone with deep expertise. They know they can trust Pete’s input because of his wealth of knowledge and expertise. We are considered a subject matter expert in all things having to do with financial planning and that that’s everything from financial literacy for individuals that may be our first time savers all the way up to the most complex of, um, uh, state plans and, and, um, wealth transfer. So yeah, most people come to us because they’re looking for our expertise or subject matter knowledge on, uh, financial planning. And I think we have some of the best people out there when putting together your network of outsiders, look for individuals who are experts in their own right.

Speaker 1 (10:47):

People who have either the intellectual knowledge or real world lived out experience to help you learn something about your role or industry that you wouldn’t know. Otherwise. The other key trait to look for in your outsiders is are they for you? Whether they’re cheerleading or challenging, you need to know that this person’s feedback is coming from a place of genuine care and investment in you as a person and as a leader, this is hugely important in the world of financial planning, when seeking the outside perspective of a financial advisor, you really want to be sure that they have your best interests at heart Pete and his team know this. And so they’ve made it clear through how they’ve structured their business, that their main goal is the good of the client. One of the questions I think we get asked a lot is like, how do you stay objective?

Speaker 1 (11:39):

It’s like, well, we’ve stripped out all of the things that would cause someone like us to be subjective. So there’s less than 2% of the firms in the country that are registered structured like us. So we don’t get, so we don’t get paid to sell insurance mutual fund nothing. So we get an advice fee. The clients pay us to dispense advice as a registered fiduciary. Pete is an outsider whose entire business is structured so that they will only do well if their clients are doing well. The outsiders in your network should have a similar level of commitment to your wellbeing. When it doesn’t come from a place of sincere care for you as a person, the words of a cheerleader can become blind approval. And those from a challenger can become an unhelpful demotivator either way, without that person being 100% for you, their insights won’t add anything of value as you look to grow as a leader.

Speaker 1 (12:39):

So let’s say you’re on board with everything you’ve heard so far. And you’ve been convinced that you need your own network of outsiders speaking into your leadership. You know, you need a good mix of cheerleaders and challengers, and each of your outsiders need to have useful expertise and they need to be totally for you. None of this matters unless you bring something key to the table and that’s the right attitude, all the best outsiders in the world, can’t help you to transform your leadership. If you don’t come to those conversations with a posture of humility for this to work, you have to be open. You have to be ready to listen and heed the advice of the outsiders you choose to surround yourself with. Like Jeff said earlier, once you have input from your outsiders, you now have the responsibility of taking from their advice. What makes sense for you, and then making the commitment to putting those things into action. If you can do that, if you can be vulnerable and let others into your reality so that they can speak into you with care and honesty, and then take what they see and act on it. I promise you your work as a leader will never be the same

Speaker 1 (13:59):

Coming up. Todd Mo setter, our vice president of content development. We’ll sit down with one of our building champions, executive coaches to discuss what you can do to open yourself up and seek helpful insight from a trusted outsider.

Speaker 4 (14:16):

Hi, my name is Todd Mo setter and I work in the content department here at building champions. This is the part of the episode where we get to sit down with one of our seasoned coaches and dig a bit deeper into this topic and talk about how you can apply it to improve with your leadership and your life. Today. I’m excited to be joined by Gavin Kerr. In addition to serving as an outsider, as one of our CEO mentors here, he brings a wealth of real world experience with some senior level positions at institutions like the children’s hospital of Pennsylvania mercy health system, the university of Pennsylvania and Pepsi on a personal note, I’ll always be jealous of Gavin because he, his wife got to see the Eagles win super bowl, 52 live, uh, which was, uh, quite an experience for a lifelong Eagles fan Gavin, thanks for joining us.

Speaker 2 (14:59):

Thank you. It’s a pleasure.

Speaker 4 (15:01):

When we think about this, um, filter of financial planning for an outsider, it really hits home. I think, to a lot of people, right? Um, some stats I was looking at this morning, you know, less than 30% of people have a long-term financial plan that includes savings and investment goals. So many people would benefit from having an outsider come in and help them with their finances. But they’re reluctant to, I think that serves as a good analogy that in leadership, many of us can be reluctant to get outside help as well. Can you talk a little bit how you’ve experienced this?

Speaker 2 (15:33):

Sure. Um, and to reinforce your point, I am semi retired. And the only reason I can do that is because I work with an outside financial planner who has been my partner in my finances and our family’s finances for about 25 years. And so having that outside perspective has been priceless in, helped me both make good choices and avoid some really bad choices. And I think, um, working with the outside perspective in your business life, um, can be just as valuable. Um, I had the good fortune of having a trusted advisor, who I’ve worked with a guy by the name of Don Leopold for about 20 years. Um, and he’s a great resource to me in a couple of ways. One is he helps me see the, see the things that I don’t see. Um, and it’s a little bit like my kids when they were growing up, um, they would leave stuff on the stairs that needed to go to their room.

Speaker 2 (16:28):

And every day they would run up the stairs, run right past it and never take it to their room. And it would make my wife nuts. You say, don’t you see that? And they absolutely didn’t see it. And I work lives. We can be very much the same way. There are so many things that we’re running by that we don’t see, uh, simply because we’ve either gotten used to them or we’re too focused on something else. So the perspective and the outsider can really help us to see, uh, those things that we don’t see in our, our, our, ourselves and our leadership and in our organizations.

Speaker 4 (17:00):

Um, when we talk about blind spots, um, I want to dive into that a little bit, right? In the first half of the episode, Daniel touched on this Dunning Kruger effect, right? This, this ability that our own incompetence can actually stop us as a bias from seeing where we need the most help. When you have the chance to work with leaders, what are some of the most common areas, blind spots, if you will, that you’ve been able to help leaders see,

Speaker 2 (17:26):

That’s a great question. I think there’s three things that I’ve experienced where people have blind spots, including myself, uh, the first blind spot. Uh, and I’m sad to admit that it was mine many years ago is that we don’t believe we need an outside perspective and that we understand it all know it all and see it all. And so, as a result, don’t engage outsiders to help us get a really clear understanding of our, of our circumstances and the elements. Uh, once I start working with people, um, the areas where I think they have the greatest blind spots are, um, first in, uh, paying attention to their markets and how those markets are evolving. Um, oftentimes we’re so focused on the, now that we don’t open our eyes to see the broader marketplace and the implications of change that are happening around us so that we can be proactive and not reactive.

Speaker 2 (18:23):

And the other place, I think people tend to have blind spots, um, is, you know, as the study showed, they believe they’re stronger in areas than they are. And that’s particularly particularly true in leading and developing their teams, um, that that’s just something people do naturally. And, um, they’re really good at it. You know, there’s a, there’s a, I don’t know if it’s a true study or an urban myths that 80% of leaders believe they’re above average, um, which just doesn’t work. And most of us work really hard to be good, but don’t necessarily see the blind spots that we have in our leadership.

Speaker 4 (19:00):

Those blind spots are the exact things that can often hold us back. Right? Like you said, from developing teams and from leading successful businesses, when we think about common traits, when you work with leaders, right? Some leaders seek out these relationships regularly, and some people tend to shy away from them. Are there some common attributes of leaders that seek them out?

Speaker 2 (19:22):

Yeah, there are, I think three, um, common attributes that stand out in my mind and I apologize for all the trees I went to seminary. So we’re kind of taught that way. Um, but, uh, the first is, as Daniel spoke to earlier, uh, is really a deep sense of humility and leaders who are really successful, have the humility to recognize that there’s, uh, a lot of things in their world that they don’t know. They also recognize that there are limitations to their own minds. So even if they’re the brightest and most effective people in the world and the really successful leaders, um, they know that their organization is limited if it’s only dependent on their own mind. The second is that they, as we talked before, they really recognize their blind spots in healthcare. Uh, every year organizations go through an accreditation process with the joint commission of accreditation.

Speaker 2 (20:20):

And by having that outside perspective coming into your organization, well, it makes everyone completely nuts. It’s forces you to look at all of your processes, all of your care delivery systems, all of your people capabilities to ensure that you are providing absolutely the highest standard of quality and safety to your patients. And that outside accountability and perspective is of the things that makes it in American healthcare. Extraordinary. Finally, um, the folks who are great leaders are really learners. They are able to really be hungry, to know more, to learn more and to recognize that they as leaders and as an organizations have the opportunity to learn and grow every single day. So I think those are the three things humility, um, recognizing that you have blind spots and welcoming outside perspective, and really living with a commitment to being a learner.

Speaker 4 (21:20):

I love those three things and you’ll never get dinged from me from organizing things into nice lists. I get, I get teased for doing it myself a lot. Um, one theme that kind of seems to run through all three of those points, right? Humility recognize blind spots, and they’re learners is a sense of being self-aware right, for all three of those things to happen as a leader, you have to be very aware of your strengths, your shortcomings, and what’s going around you when you work with leaders, how have you seen them successfully develop this sense of self-awareness, right? Because whether it’s a strength or whether it’s an area for improvement, we can all probably do better in this area at times. Have you seen methods, uh, that you’ve coached people through to help them be a little more self-aware?

Speaker 2 (22:04):

Uh, so, uh, really important that as leaders we are self-aware and when I’ve seen leaders struggle and fail typically it’s because they aren’t self-aware um, in, in some cases it’s because they they’re afraid and have the feedback and feeling insecure. In other cases, they’re arrogant and therefore, um, don’t have the desire to get that feedback. So when I work with leaders, there’s sort of, there’s several things that we do. One is, um, I asked them to reach out to their colleagues and seek input on a regular basis. Um, one of the things that someone taught me to do, one of my mentors is every quarter that I should go to my team and ask, how am I doing? What’s working well, what’s not working. And are there things that I should stop or start doing similarly, going to, um, either your board or your manager and asking the, exactly those same questions.

Speaker 2 (23:06):

So you’re getting feedback from both directions and then perhaps most importantly, reaching out to your customers and seeking input and feedback from them. Um, the second, uh, tool that I encourage leaders to use is a three 60 feedback tool. Uh, we use a, a superb tool. We use a superb tool called the leadership circle three 60, which allows leaders to gain feedback from a broad spectrum of the people who matter most to them, their team, their managers, their colleagues in the organization and their customers. And it’s a really valuable resource for getting feedback and gaining self-awareness, particularly if you work with a coach who can help you gain insight that you might not get otherwise.

Speaker 4 (23:53):

So Kevin, you talk about this need to get an outside perspective, right. And what kind of criteria should people really be using when they evaluate, um, outside outsiders

Speaker 2 (24:02):

First and foremost, um, people need to look for someone who they can truly trust someone who genuinely cares for them and for your success. Um, but also who you can share your deepest concerns, your hardest challenges, and who will protect, protect your competences. Uh, it’s very difficult, particularly the more senior you are in the organization to find people who you can’t have those kinds of unfiltered conversations and know that you can trust that the conversations will not go nowhere and that they will be in your support. Um, so essentially a person who you can trust, who’s committed to helping you be a better person and a better leader. Uh, the second thing I would look for is people who have knowledge and real world experience, where you’re lacking in people who can help you see the stuff that you don’t see and who understand the things that you don’t understand.

Speaker 2 (24:57):

So for me, uh, Don was a great resource. Um, I don’t have an MBA. Um, I’ve had some great experience. Uh, Don is a Harvard trained MBA who has worked with hundreds of world-class companies. And so he brought a breadth of knowledge and best practices from the rest of the world. That was really valuable to me. So someone who really has knowledge and real world experience, even if it’s not in your industry. And then finally, and maybe most importantly, I’d look for people who are what I call courageous listeners by that. I mean, people who are truly are seeking to understand both your business and you, and who will listen, intently to hear what is that you may not hearing in your own thinking and who asked really thoughtful questions to keep pushing your thinker for thinking further, and then who are courageous and helping share the feedback with you, helping you hear things you may not want to hear helping you go further than you might not want to go.

Speaker 4 (26:01):

I think those are great. Um, a great list, right? We have trust in there and we have competence and we have this courageous listening. I think this is an important point that I really hope that listeners can pick up on. Um, when prepping for this episode, uh, we did some research, right? Uh, and there were two studies that came up that, that really stood out to us. And both of them touched on this idea that when seeking feedback, people are more likely to go to people that they like, regardless of, if they think they can help them or not.

Speaker 2 (26:30):

Tom, that’s a really important point. Um, and it goes back to, uh, the earlier in the podcast. So talking, thinking about who are your cheer cheerleaders and who are your challengers, and you really need to have both of those, um, someone who is relentlessly challenging, you can wear you out and break your confidence, but someone who is the person you’re most comfortable with and who will be your cheerleader, um, can drive you, pour it on a path that maybe isn’t the optimal path for your team and your organization.

Speaker 4 (27:06):

I love that we’re touching on this because they both serve valuable purposes, right? I like what you said there, you need that balance because if you are only getting the cheerleading, you’re not going to be challenged. And if all you’re getting is challenged, you’re probably going to break down at some point. Um, when you were sitting actually in the senior leadership seat, how did you balance those two perspectives?

Speaker 2 (27:28):

The way I balanced it was, I guess, best described this portfolio management. Um, I worked really hard to have a fairly broad team or network, as you said earlier of, uh, inside and outside voices that, um, I was hearing pro. And so, um, I had a great board and my board was intentionally made up of both cheerleaders and people who could be a real pain in the neck. Um, and in many ways, the people who asked the toughest questions, who are the most skeptical, uh, were incredibly valuable, but also if it had only been those voices, I think I would have become discouraged.

Speaker 4 (28:11):

Yeah. I love what you touched on there, because if there isn’t a healthy amount of tension in some of these outside of relationships, then you’re probably not utilizing them the right way. Right. They should force you to think about things differently. When we think about that tension, um, from a leader’s perspective, they should be reaching out to their network of outsiders on a regular basis. But, but two specific examples that come to mind would be when there’s a problem and when there’s a possibility, right? So if there’s a problem, there’s an acute situation that needs immediate improvement. I’m struggling with this, and I know what this is, and I want to get an outside perspective to help me, or there’s a possibility, right? I’m exploring an opportunity. And I want to talk to folks who may see it differently and may stretch me. Can you talk a little bit about those two opportunities and how a leader can leverage them both

Speaker 2 (29:01):

When there’s a acute situation that needs some improvement that typically requires a very fast response. And so, um, typically I think it’s best to find someone who has industry experience and it possible has been in a similar seat before, but who isn’t coming in as a, necessarily a consultant, but coming in as an outside perspective and understands the industry and the questions, um, to ask, um, when it’s, uh, an opportunity. Um, I think someone with experience can be great, but it can be really helpful to have outside perspectives from other industries so that you can do some lateral thinking and see the, the, uh, opportunity from a wide variety of perspectives, perhaps even innovating based upon something you learned from, um, another industry and other business, uh, something that’s outside your kind of current network of knowledge.

Speaker 4 (30:07):

When we think about the opportunity to work with outsiders on our regular basis, I love the example that you used about your board earlier, that some of them were really supportive and some of them were painting your neck. Um, when we think about getting the most out of those relationships, are there any special ingredients or requirements things that you need to do and things the outsider need to do to make that relationship most beneficial?

Speaker 2 (30:31):

Yes. I think, uh, the first is that as a leader, you need to create the environment that welcomes and encourages, uh, both cheerleading and challenging input. Um, I, once, uh, early in my career, when I was at the Penn health system, I worked for a remarkable man by the name of bill Kelly, who was the CEO and Dean of the medical school. And bill was brilliant. He was incredibly, incredibly visionary and confident in himself. And, um, bill was envisioning what now we call the accountable care organization back in the 1990s. Unfortunately, the systems information systems and the reimbursement systems weren’t in a place that we could be successful, but bill was so competent and so compelling that everyone became a cheerleader. And then bill had a certain edge to him that made people afraid to be a challenger. And as a result, the health system crashed and burned.

Speaker 2 (31:38):

We nearly took the entire university of Pennsylvania into bankruptcy after 50 years. And so that’s an example where I learned very early on that it’s essential that as a leader, we create the openness and the environment that invites people to be provide their outside perspective to us, whatever it is. The second is, I think it’s really important for those who are providing an outside perspective to start as a leader and to seek first, to understand, and then to be understood. Um, so often outsiders come in with a perspective and share that perspective without a full understanding of the circumstances and of the leader. And when that occurs, the advice may or may not be accurate, but even more. So it creates a barrier for the leader to be able to hear and trust the perspective of that outsider, because immediately they can go to, well,

Speaker 4 (32:40):

That’s great, but you don’t understand my situation. And so I think for us as leaders, creating that environment where we’re really welcoming input and as outsiders, um, seeking first to understand before we get to sharing our, what we believe those are two great examples. I think Gavin, when you talk about a leader creating an environment, um, that’s always going to be key, right? If the leader is welcoming this type of feedback, this type of, uh, perspective sharpening, if you will, it’s going to improve the organization across the board and whether you’re an outsider or whether you’re on the team. This idea of, um, asking questions first to understand, I think is always going to put the recipient in a better place to receive that outside advice, um, because of it feels too prescriptive. Um, you probably won’t have the impact that you’re looking for. Absolutely. I know that, um, our clients that I’ve spoken to the, your ability to be a good listener to ask great questions and to help them see around corners is evident. I know personally we’ve benefited from that as an organization as well. So Gavin, thank you for sharing your outside perspective to us, as well as, uh, during this conversation for our listeners. I really appreciate it. And you Todd, thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity is getting to work with you on it.

Speaker 1 (34:02):

Thanks so much to my friends, our guests, Pete Fisher, and Jeff Pineo for their stories and expertise, and a huge thanks to you for investing the time and listening to this episode, this wraps up season one of the building champions podcast. We look forward to connecting with you again in the fall when we release season two, but in the meantime, visit building champions.com forward slash podcast to access every episode from season one, as well as a number of helpful tools and resources. And as always we’d so appreciate it. If you could share the show with friends and colleagues, as well as leave us a rating and a review on Apple podcasts, doing so helps other people find us and gives us helpful feedback on how we’re doing. I hope this journey of learning and growth was helpful for you. We look forward to sharing season two with you, but as I mentioned in the beginning, your input is really needed. Please go to building champions.com forward slash podcast. Take a few minutes and fill out the survey, where can we improve? What are we doing well? And what do you want to hear more from in the season ahead? Thanks a lot. I look forward to being back with you in season two.